Humidor 101
- Thread starter AAlmeter
- Start date
AAl meter;
A couple of questions for you, if I might?
How close is what I call Red Cedar (prevelant in the south) to spanish cedar? Or is ti the same thing? I know Red Cedar is very good at rot resistence, and has good aroma properties. But is it too aromatic?
If red cedar is not the same as spanish, do you know enough about red cedar to make any judgement as to it's suitability for the liner?
I have several red cedar log sections stored in my barn for future projects, and this sounds like one.
Exterior: Any danger of exterior odors affecting interior storage? I also have black walnut trunks stored for future projects. Would make a beautiful exterior, but not at the expense of cigars, and black walnut can have an odor.
I also have a very nice piece of Red Oak plank (1" x 12" x 10') put back that will do nicely if Walnut is questionable. This plank is well cured, and begging for a good use, so walnut is not a major issue.
Thanks for posts, a copy will be in my workshop tomorrow, waiting for me to make time to butcher some wood. :r
A couple of questions for you, if I might?
How close is what I call Red Cedar (prevelant in the south) to spanish cedar? Or is ti the same thing? I know Red Cedar is very good at rot resistence, and has good aroma properties. But is it too aromatic?
If red cedar is not the same as spanish, do you know enough about red cedar to make any judgement as to it's suitability for the liner?
I have several red cedar log sections stored in my barn for future projects, and this sounds like one.
Exterior: Any danger of exterior odors affecting interior storage? I also have black walnut trunks stored for future projects. Would make a beautiful exterior, but not at the expense of cigars, and black walnut can have an odor.
I also have a very nice piece of Red Oak plank (1" x 12" x 10') put back that will do nicely if Walnut is questionable. This plank is well cured, and begging for a good use, so walnut is not a major issue.
Thanks for posts, a copy will be in my workshop tomorrow, waiting for me to make time to butcher some wood. :r
I use 1/4 Spanish Cedar for the interiors. Anything less than this won't work for a buffer which is the real reason for putting it in. You can always go thicker, but about 3/8" is about as thick as you want to go otherwise you'll start to really take up storage space.
A dust mask or even better a respirator is pretty much necessary for Spanish Cedar. It might smell nice, but it tastes like crap and you definitely don't want to be breathing it. That also goes with a good air handling system. You can go as low tech as opening the garage door and using a fan. Spanish Cedar dust can hang in the air for hours after you are done, because it is very fine and very light.
Unless you want your humidor to smell like a hamster cage, don't use red cedar. Spanish cedar is the common name, it actually isn't even a cedar. It is a type of mahogany.
When you buy Spanish cedar, make sure your source understands what they are doing. As weird as it may sound, depending upon the phase of the moon it was harvested under, it can have a significant variation in the amount of sap. There are two tricks to use to do the best you can to make sure the cedar doesn't eventually bleed. Mill it to the final thickness and then stack it off to the side with something like the basic foam sheeting you find wrapped around electronics and other products and leave for about 30 - 60 days. The foam will draw out the excess sap. You can also mill to final thickness and then bake the boards at about 180 degrees for 30 - 45 minutes. (You have to be VERY careful with this one if you don't want to start a fire.)
No matter what tools you buy whether powered or hand tools, the number one wood working tool ever made can't be purchased. It is sitting on top of your shoulders. It something even remotely seems risky, don't do it.
A dust mask or even better a respirator is pretty much necessary for Spanish Cedar. It might smell nice, but it tastes like crap and you definitely don't want to be breathing it. That also goes with a good air handling system. You can go as low tech as opening the garage door and using a fan. Spanish Cedar dust can hang in the air for hours after you are done, because it is very fine and very light.
Unless you want your humidor to smell like a hamster cage, don't use red cedar. Spanish cedar is the common name, it actually isn't even a cedar. It is a type of mahogany.
When you buy Spanish cedar, make sure your source understands what they are doing. As weird as it may sound, depending upon the phase of the moon it was harvested under, it can have a significant variation in the amount of sap. There are two tricks to use to do the best you can to make sure the cedar doesn't eventually bleed. Mill it to the final thickness and then stack it off to the side with something like the basic foam sheeting you find wrapped around electronics and other products and leave for about 30 - 60 days. The foam will draw out the excess sap. You can also mill to final thickness and then bake the boards at about 180 degrees for 30 - 45 minutes. (You have to be VERY careful with this one if you don't want to start a fire.)
No matter what tools you buy whether powered or hand tools, the number one wood working tool ever made can't be purchased. It is sitting on top of your shoulders. It something even remotely seems risky, don't do it.
I also use the following:
Titebond II
Titebond III
Gorilla Glue
The Titebond II and III will actually produce a stronger joint in the short term, but over several days Gorilla Glue will eventually have more strength. I tend to prefer the Titebond simply because it cleans up a lot better than Gorilla Glue, doesn't discolor my hands, and there isn't a lot of foaming residue as you get with Gorilla Glue. It also lasts a lot longer than Gorilla Glue.
If you are buying Gorilla Glue, buy the SMALLEST bottle that they have. Unless you are gluing up hundreds of items, you'll just wind up wasting a lot of glue.
But, don't get that wrong. Any of the three mentioned above will have more bonding strength than the wood around it. Once fully cured, you are going to break the board long before you break the glue line with any of those three.
Titebond II
Titebond III
Gorilla Glue
The Titebond II and III will actually produce a stronger joint in the short term, but over several days Gorilla Glue will eventually have more strength. I tend to prefer the Titebond simply because it cleans up a lot better than Gorilla Glue, doesn't discolor my hands, and there isn't a lot of foaming residue as you get with Gorilla Glue. It also lasts a lot longer than Gorilla Glue.
If you are buying Gorilla Glue, buy the SMALLEST bottle that they have. Unless you are gluing up hundreds of items, you'll just wind up wasting a lot of glue.
But, don't get that wrong. Any of the three mentioned above will have more bonding strength than the wood around it. Once fully cured, you are going to break the board long before you break the glue line with any of those three.
I am building a replica 3 door icebox out of solid quartersawn white oak. I plan on making it a humidor. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Thinking I will line it with 1/2 inch spanish cedar an make slide out cedar slat trays. Perhaps box storage in the larger of the three doors. Should I glue the cedar to the oak, or will they expand and contract at different rates. Also thought about no glue tongue and groove or board and battan for the cedar lining. Do you think I can make the door seals adequate? Any humidifying suggestions. I already have the case and doors cut but not assembled.AAlmeter said:
Again, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
SvilleKid said:
Red cedar is not Spanish cedar. Do not use red cedar. Though black walnut does have an odor (I find it to be very pleasant), Ive found that even 1/4" of sp cedar lining will keep the smell out. To be honest, I dont think it would really matter. Many people like the smell of spanish cedar as a compliment to cigars, and I dont think black walnut would be a bad choice either. But.....with the lining its not a problem and I THINK that the smell of black walnut dissipates within weeks, whereas sp cedar will last for quite a while.
Your best bet would be to make a black walnut humidor, and a red oak one.
opusxox said:I am building a replica 3 door icebox out of solid quartersawn white oak. I plan on making it a humidor. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Thinking I will line it with 1/2 inch spanish cedar an make slide out cedar slat trays. Perhaps box storage in the larger of the three doors. Should I glue the cedar to the oak, or will they expand and contract at different rates. Also thought about no glue tongue and groove or board and battan for the cedar lining. Do you think I can make the door seals adequate? Any humidifying suggestions. I already have the case and doors cut but not assembled.
Again, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Well, I need to ask you a few questions. By icebox...you mean 'icebox' right? Like old fridge size? Take extra care with your angles. Any error will be very noticable. You are almost framing a room at that size, but Im assuming you still want to keep a woodworkers tolerence. You will need an active humidification system. There are plenty of threads on here from people who know more that I do about that. 1/2" is appropriate and easy to work with for that size humidor.
Focus on the construction of the exterior. Make sure everything fits cleanly and accurately. I'd call 1/2" Spanish Cedar a bit much, you shouldn't have to go that thick. It's a liner, not the main building material. 1/4" at a minimum and 3/8" at most should get you exactly what you want.
Lining desktop humidors is easy, you cut it to fit snugly, and you do NOT glue it to the exterior wood. This allows it to basically float and shift as the cedar expands without placing stress on the exterior. If it were glued to the exterior, most desktops would eventually blow them selves apart due to the stress points. Don't underestimate just how much force is exerted by a board when it expands by 1/128".
Lining a cabinet is much different since you are dealing with larger areas and the fact that you have horizontal and vertical orientations. So, yes, there is some adhesion that you need to do. The top and bottom are something we usually glue to the exterior, but we use very thin sheets (~1/16") for that lining to reduce the amount of stress it can exert. For the walls, we go as sparingly with the glue as possible. You want the liner to stay in place and not display any gaps to the exterior wood, but you don't want it glued so completely that it doesn't move.
Lining desktop humidors is easy, you cut it to fit snugly, and you do NOT glue it to the exterior wood. This allows it to basically float and shift as the cedar expands without placing stress on the exterior. If it were glued to the exterior, most desktops would eventually blow them selves apart due to the stress points. Don't underestimate just how much force is exerted by a board when it expands by 1/128".
Lining a cabinet is much different since you are dealing with larger areas and the fact that you have horizontal and vertical orientations. So, yes, there is some adhesion that you need to do. The top and bottom are something we usually glue to the exterior, but we use very thin sheets (~1/16") for that lining to reduce the amount of stress it can exert. For the walls, we go as sparingly with the glue as possible. You want the liner to stay in place and not display any gaps to the exterior wood, but you don't want it glued so completely that it doesn't move.
I am worried about wood movement, but need a fairly good seal too. The panel sides and front concern me the most with uneven surfaces to cover with cedar. I wonder if i should build a free standing cedar box (not glued to exterior) built to inside dimensions of cabinet.This would allow plenty of movement. What do you think?mhotek said:
There are really two ways to seal a hunidor.
Basic mechanical: This is what you see in every desktop. It basically consists of a lip which seats into the lid when closed. Rarely it will be reversed where the lip is in the lid and fits down into the base. (This configuration is one that I hate since it has the potential to crush a cigar.) This type of seal relies on precision in the woodworking. It needs to be just loose enough to allow you to open the lid without requiring a crowbar, but just tight enough so that you don't produce a large gap. When you hit that, this type of seal works primarily due to the fact that in order for air to escape around the seal, it has to move in a way that is very unnatural and only possible if you forced it by blasting a fan directly at the seal.
Weatherstripping: This is the type of seal favored by several cabinet humidor manufacturers. This seal works by relying on the ability for the door to sit flush and have enough closing power on the magnets to draw the door into the weatherstripping to compress it and make the seal. Again, it works as long as you are very precise with your cuts and assembly. There is little room for error in this type of seal, just like in the one above, in order to make it work. If you are using this type of seal, you are going to require rare earth magnets on the closures. The reason is that they produce a very strong magnetic field while still being very small. You are going to need the power in order to draw the door to the carcass to deform the weather stripping enough to create the seal.
I prefer the mechanical seal, which is manifested in a cabinet by constructing the door in such as way that part of it seats inside the carcass of the cabinet. It is straight forward and relies very simply on your wood working skills. In the event that you weren't precise enough, it can always be supplemented with weather stripping + rare earth magnets.
If you go with the weather stripping approach, then you hav exactly one option - very precise wood working with very precise assembly there is no other option and not getting either one right means starting over.
In either case, you are going to want to seriously consider using European style hinges. The reason for this is that after the door is attached, this hinge allows you to adjust the fit up/down as well as in/out.
Basic mechanical: This is what you see in every desktop. It basically consists of a lip which seats into the lid when closed. Rarely it will be reversed where the lip is in the lid and fits down into the base. (This configuration is one that I hate since it has the potential to crush a cigar.) This type of seal relies on precision in the woodworking. It needs to be just loose enough to allow you to open the lid without requiring a crowbar, but just tight enough so that you don't produce a large gap. When you hit that, this type of seal works primarily due to the fact that in order for air to escape around the seal, it has to move in a way that is very unnatural and only possible if you forced it by blasting a fan directly at the seal.
Weatherstripping: This is the type of seal favored by several cabinet humidor manufacturers. This seal works by relying on the ability for the door to sit flush and have enough closing power on the magnets to draw the door into the weatherstripping to compress it and make the seal. Again, it works as long as you are very precise with your cuts and assembly. There is little room for error in this type of seal, just like in the one above, in order to make it work. If you are using this type of seal, you are going to require rare earth magnets on the closures. The reason is that they produce a very strong magnetic field while still being very small. You are going to need the power in order to draw the door to the carcass to deform the weather stripping enough to create the seal.
I prefer the mechanical seal, which is manifested in a cabinet by constructing the door in such as way that part of it seats inside the carcass of the cabinet. It is straight forward and relies very simply on your wood working skills. In the event that you weren't precise enough, it can always be supplemented with weather stripping + rare earth magnets.
If you go with the weather stripping approach, then you hav exactly one option - very precise wood working with very precise assembly there is no other option and not getting either one right means starting over.
In either case, you are going to want to seriously consider using European style hinges. The reason for this is that after the door is attached, this hinge allows you to adjust the fit up/down as well as in/out.
mhotek said:
Thanks for your help. I like the idea of the mechanical fit, no manmade materials. Perhaps a double lip arrangement, kinda like a rounded edges tongue and groove seal. then the air would need to make a u-turn to get through. I agree the most important factor will be precise woodworking.
Old Sailor
BOSUN - S.O.B. MEMBER
Is there anything used between the glass and the wood to make a good seal?
Old Sailor said:
Sorry, just saw this.
No, I didn't use anything to seal the glass/wood joint. I suppose you could use glazing compound, but that would look like hell. I just made my cuts nice and tight so everything fit together nicely.
A little air circulation is ok, as long as it holds humidity.
DruLeeParsec
Young Ape
Well, I'm going to be building myself a humidor soon. I have a woodworking shop where I mainly build musical instruments. But I've done several non-musical projects like jewelery boxes, 4 rocking horses, some basic cabinet work and so on.
Regarding Red Cedar vs. Spanish Cedar and so on we must realize that Spanish Cedar is actually Cedrela odorata which is not actually a cedar but is really a mahogany. True Cedar is from the genus Cedrus rather than Cedrela. I know, it's a total geek thing but as a woodworker you just learn this stuff by osmosis.
EBay is a decent place to find some really nice planks of wood at a decent price. From there a humidor should pretty much be all table saw work. However, I think I'm going to dovetail my boards at the corners just because I like the look (and because I have an Incra Jig).
HOWEVER, Let's not forget that people have done woodworking before 100 years ago. They did it without electricity and therefore without power tools. So if you'd like to get into the woodworking hobby without spending several thousand dollars on power tools then get yourself a solid bench, a couple hand saws, a good chisel set and a couple of hand planes.
These are good chisels. These are what I use
These are NOT good chisels. Notice the price difference.
You can get by with one hand plane. A #4 or #5 will do a great job for you for a long time. Older Stanley or Bailey hand planes are vastly better than the new planes being produced today. You could buy an expensive plane from Lee Valley or you could search EBay. I've never paid more than $65 for a hand plane. My favorite is a #7 Bailey joiner plane with a patent date of 1910. It works perfectly every time.
There's more information than you could ever want to know about hand planes at this site.
There's a real pleasure in working with hand tools. I love the feel of a really sharp chisel or hand plane. Get a combination Japanese water stone and learn to sharpen a blade. It's a skill that will really add a lot to your woodworking experience.
Regarding learning hand woodworking skills Master Woodworker Frank Klaus once told me "Get yourself 4 pine boards each about 3 feet long. Dovetail them together. Your dovetails will look like crap. Cut the dovetails off and do it again. By the time you know how to make dovetails by hand you'll have a nice little box to hold your shoe polish"
Also, working with hand tools have these benefits: It's quieter, It's safer (It's really hard to cut off a hand with a hand plane) and you create shavings, not sawdust so you're not breathing in nasty stuff.
So go have fun and be safe. Get some cheap hardwood like oak and practice making a box with hand tools. (Don't make your humidor from Oak. Oak stinks) Working with hand tools is cheaper and in many ways more rewarding. Power tools are great and I have a lot in my shop, but it's always nice to have that hand tool skill set in your "back pocket" when you need it.
Regarding Red Cedar vs. Spanish Cedar and so on we must realize that Spanish Cedar is actually Cedrela odorata which is not actually a cedar but is really a mahogany. True Cedar is from the genus Cedrus rather than Cedrela. I know, it's a total geek thing but as a woodworker you just learn this stuff by osmosis.
EBay is a decent place to find some really nice planks of wood at a decent price. From there a humidor should pretty much be all table saw work. However, I think I'm going to dovetail my boards at the corners just because I like the look (and because I have an Incra Jig).
HOWEVER, Let's not forget that people have done woodworking before 100 years ago. They did it without electricity and therefore without power tools. So if you'd like to get into the woodworking hobby without spending several thousand dollars on power tools then get yourself a solid bench, a couple hand saws, a good chisel set and a couple of hand planes.
These are good chisels. These are what I use
These are NOT good chisels. Notice the price difference.
You can get by with one hand plane. A #4 or #5 will do a great job for you for a long time. Older Stanley or Bailey hand planes are vastly better than the new planes being produced today. You could buy an expensive plane from Lee Valley or you could search EBay. I've never paid more than $65 for a hand plane. My favorite is a #7 Bailey joiner plane with a patent date of 1910. It works perfectly every time.
There's more information than you could ever want to know about hand planes at this site.
There's a real pleasure in working with hand tools. I love the feel of a really sharp chisel or hand plane. Get a combination Japanese water stone and learn to sharpen a blade. It's a skill that will really add a lot to your woodworking experience.
Regarding learning hand woodworking skills Master Woodworker Frank Klaus once told me "Get yourself 4 pine boards each about 3 feet long. Dovetail them together. Your dovetails will look like crap. Cut the dovetails off and do it again. By the time you know how to make dovetails by hand you'll have a nice little box to hold your shoe polish"
Also, working with hand tools have these benefits: It's quieter, It's safer (It's really hard to cut off a hand with a hand plane) and you create shavings, not sawdust so you're not breathing in nasty stuff.
So go have fun and be safe. Get some cheap hardwood like oak and practice making a box with hand tools. (Don't make your humidor from Oak. Oak stinks) Working with hand tools is cheaper and in many ways more rewarding. Power tools are great and I have a lot in my shop, but it's always nice to have that hand tool skill set in your "back pocket" when you need it.