Packers vs. Cowboys Banter

[Savvy]

This is easily going to be the biggest game of the NFC season, NFL network too...so that'll be irritating for many of you.

Both of the teams are looking good this year. I'm hoping the Packers defense plays well again, and maybe they can pull off a win.

With that said, even though I'm probably a big underdog, I'll put up 5 NC sticks saying the Pack will beat the Cowboys. Any takers? I feel like I might be just giving away cigars haha...lets hear it TX

[Sergeant Smoky]

Me Me Me oh pick Me, I'll put up for the Cowboys:chk

[King James]

Me Me Me oh pick Me, I'll put up for the Cowboys:chk

You sure you want to do that? It isn't too late to turn back

[Studebaker]

I'm a loyal cheesehead but I wouldn't risk any sticks on it. It should be a tough fight. Biting nails here....

[larryinlc]

I make no excuses as injuries are part of the game. That being said, if Charles Woodson can't play,we'll have a tough time defending the Cowboy's receivers with only Al Harris. Also, J Harrel(rookie)is going to start on the defensive line(played in two games this year). We've been able to pressure the qb all year with the front four. Thursday night may be different. Plus, no KGB. This too will hurt the pass rush. The bright spot for the Packers...the offense is intact and clicking. I feel this will be a high scoring game. It will have to be on the Packers part if they have any hope of winning.

No banter from me. I'm a huge Packer fan but I think they lose this one. Maybe we meet again in the playoffs. If completely healthy, we'll smoke them then.:ss

Larry

[hornitosmonster]

Go Cowboys!! :tu

Looking forward to a great game

[jagmqt]

I'm for Green Bay now...and then again when the cowgirls travel north for Ice Bowl II to put Green Bay into the Big Game...

jag

[Simplified]

I'm for Green Bay now...and then again when the cowgirls travel north for Ice Bowl II to put Green Bay into the Big Game...

jag

Should be a great game...

Fing cable company does not have the NFL Chanel so i will not see it!:confused:

[jagmqt]

Should be a great game...

Fing cable company does not have the NFL Chanel so i will not see it!:confused:

http://channelsurfing.net/

Watch it here...that's how I got the Colts game on Thanksgiving...Once the game is started scroll down the page and there will be a couple of links to choose from...try 'em until you get the best feed...

NFL Network and Comcast can both go to hell!

jag

[Cigar_Dan]

this will be a great game, and it has been predited that this is the preview of the divisional championship game...eh as long as the cowboys win I'm all for it. Go Cowboys!!!!!!

[Simplified]

http://channelsurfing.net/

Watch it here...that's how I got the Colts game on Thanksgiving...Once the game is started scroll down the page and there will be a couple of links to choose from...try 'em until you get the best feed...

NFL Network and Comcast can both go to hell!

jag


Cool thanks!

[Savvy]

I make no excuses as injuries are part of the game. That being said, if Charles Woodson can't play,we'll have a tough time defending the Cowboy's receivers with only Al Harris. Also, J Harrel(rookie)is going to start on the defensive line(played in two games this year). We've been able to pressure the qb all year with the front four. Thursday night may be different. Plus, no KGB. This too will hurt the pass rush. The bright spot for the Packers...the offense is intact and clicking. I feel this will be a high scoring game. It will have to be on the Packers part if they have any hope of winning.

No banter from me. I'm a huge Packer fan but I think they lose this one. Maybe we meet again in the playoffs. If completely healthy, we'll smoke them then.:ss

Larry


I'm hoping we beat them with the injuries now, then smoke them in the playoffs when we're healthy. It might be completely unreasonable, but I can hope...

[tmarc75]

Am I the only one that thinks this game is going to be a one-sided blowout? I mean the packers lost to the Bears. And as a Bears fan, I can say that doesn't bode well for them. I don't think the final Packers score will be within 2 touchdowns of the Cowboys.

Oh and I hate T.O.

[Jbailey]

All for the Packers!

[Savvy]

Am I the only one that thinks this game is going to be a one-sided blowout? I mean the packers lost to the Bears. And as a Bears fan, I can say that doesn't bode well for them. I don't think the final Packers score will be within 2 touchdowns of the Cowboys.

Oh and I hate T.O.

The Pack looked like crap when they played the Bears, they've looked a lot better in the last couple of weeks. And with the whole hating T.O. thing doesn't that just make you want the Cowboys to lose? Even with you being a Bears fan...I know it's hard to hope for a rival team...

[tmarc75]

I'd rather see the Packers win, but I just think Dallas is the better team. :tu

[etw926]

Oh and I hate T.O.

He is having one of his best seasons so hate on because he loves it :r

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i171/etw926/gifto.gif

[joed]

should be an interesting game - the winner will be the odds on favorite to loose the superbowl this year.

[Puffy69]

This is the only game ive really been worried about..I have confidence that The Boys will win this and have placed my small wager..I just wish we didnt have to play GB cuz I like Favre and his new Team, but he needs to get his 2nd lost tomorrow.

[newcigarz]

I'm pretty sure its going to be a good game. I like Favre and the way GB has played this year. But I think my team is going beat them.

Go Cowboys!:tu

[King James]

Have there been any updates on the questionable guys for the Pack? is it still looking like they won't be playing?

[jpa0741]

I will take Green Bay +7 for a nice 5er if anyone is interested. Let me know.:tu

[backwoods]

Have there been any updates on the questionable guys for the Pack? is it still looking like they won't be playing?

KGB says hes 100% and wants to play....waiting for coaches decision. not sure about the others

[jagmqt]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AufyOXxaHLLgpaQS9XeoXsFDubYF?slug=ap-packers-cowboys&prov=ap&type=lgns

That's a yahoo link to the history of the matchup...a little gas for the fire!

Packers are due...they're down overall and Favre needs it to retire....a win thursday and one for the NFC championship, the match-up evens out!

jag

[Savvy]

The thing I dont like about the game is it being in Dallas, I'd be a lot more confident if it was in Green Bay, the Cowboys would be freezing their asses off and the Pack could smoke them up here...oh well maybe we'll make it down there too, although looking at the past games it seems the home team is winning pretty often...maybe the Pack will change that up tomorrow.





Go Pack Go!

[Beer Doctor]

The thing I dont like about the game is it being in Dallas, I'd be a lot more confident if it was in Green Bay, the Cowboys would be freezing their asses off and the Pack could smoke them up here...oh well maybe we'll make it down there too, although looking at the past games it seems the home team is winning pretty often...maybe the Pack will change that up tomorrow.





Go Pack Go!

Romo's from Wisconsin and Barber is from Minnesota. They wouldn't be that cold:chk


GO COWBOYS!!!!

[Iggy]

I will take Green Bay +7 for a nice 5er if anyone is interested. Let me know.:tu


I will take that!:)

Should be a good game, this will just make it a little more fun.

Iggy

[rack04]

GO COWBOYS. I had to upgrade my cable package just so I could watch the game tonight on NFL Network HD.

[Dgar]

http://channelsurfing.net/

Watch it here...that's how I got the Colts game on Thanksgiving...Once the game is started scroll down the page and there will be a couple of links to choose from...try 'em until you get the best feed...

NFL Network and Comcast can both go to hell!

jag


Man thanks, I hope this works for me....

[jagmqt]

BREAKING NEWS...

It was just reported that Romo will be the holder tonight for Field Goals and extra points...they wanted to ensure that the job would be done correctly...


Just kidding...that's not true, just twisting the knife a little...:tu

It's 9 hours 15 minutes to kickoff...not that I'm really looking forward to this game or anything...

jag

[Twill413]

Boy am I glad that I am living in one of the markets in WI that is picking up the NFL Networks feed for the game. I am really hoping for a good game, and ultimately a packers win. Might come down to a big play on special teams or defense. But Brett is playing like a kid again, so you can't ever count them out.

[Cubatobaco]

I've been looking forward to this game. Its going to be a shootout! Thank God that my buddy has the NFL Network. I still can't figure out why the best game of the year is not televised on national syndicate? Anyway, till tomorrow...

[backwoods]

Romo's from Wisconsin and Barber is from Minnesota. They wouldn't be that cold:chk


GO COWBOYS!!!!


wait...you are from wisconsin and rooting for the brokeback boys?


May Favre have mercy on your soul:mn



Boy am I glad that I am living in one of the markets in WI that is picking up the NFL Networks feed for the game..:fu:fu

[DoctaJ]

Stupid NFL Network :mn I am debating where I will go to watch the game. There are a lot of Packer fans around here so it could be fun to go to a bar to watch it. Luckily if I do want to stay home, I have other means of watching the game :tu The wonders of the internet :po

[Savvy]

Uh oh KGB and Woodson are out...that weakens my confidence in the defense a little bit...but we can still take 'em. Let's go Pack

[backwoods]

Uh oh KGB and Woodson are out...that weakens my confidence in the defense a little bit...but we can still take 'em. Let's go Pack


....and to top it off....channelsurfing.net is running realllll slow.


i hope it doesnt go down with all the traffic it will be handling tonight:D

[King James]

Looking forward to a good game! I wish woodson was playing but can't do anything about that. Would rather have them be healthy for the possible match up a few weeks down the road that really matters.

[NCRadioMan]

....and to top it off....channelsurfing.net is running realllll slow.


i hope it doesnt go down with all the traffic it will be handling tonight:D

Oh, it will. The secret got out on several national sports talk shows today and a lot of local stations around here were also giving out the info. Glad I have the Network.

[MarkinCA]

In September, we moved across the street to another home here in Valencia that was, unfortunately, surrounded by tall trees. Thus, eliminating my DishHD reception. Had to go with Time Warner Cable and you guys know the NFL Network on-going issues there around the country.

I heard a humerous comment on one of the sport talk stations earlier this morning, wherein one of the talking heads indicated "Well, isn't the Cowboys Americas team?" "Shouldn't every city in America then be considered hometown for the Cowboys?" Well, I do think the NFL pulled a boner on this call and at least feel Fox, NBC, or ESPN should be picking up a concurrent broadcast this evening.

Nonetheless, my old next door neighbor has DirectTV and thats where I'm headed shortly to view tonights "best" match-up of the season (and of course, I'll be pulling for the Pack this evening).....

Injuries? We'll know more for sure exactly at game time whom will and will not be playing on both sides. Never count anyone out.

Goooooooooooooooooooooooo Packers....!!! :cb

[backwoods]

can someone with a webcam put it on the game so i can see it:r


wheres kenstogie when i need him:D

[ComicBookFreak]

Reports are that KGB and Woodson will not play tonight.

CBF

[DoctaJ]

can someone with a webcam put it on the game so i can see it:r


wheres kenstogie when i need him:D

http://myp2p.eu/broadcast.php?matchid=2786&part=sports


This is much better than a webcam :tu

[DoctaJ]

Uh oh KGB and Woodson are out...that weakens my confidence in the defense a little bit...but we can still take 'em. Let's go Pack

Ouch, losing Woodson really hurts the Pack. I was looking forward to seeing him match up against Owens too.

[hornitosmonster]

Super Hyped for this game!!

Had me a nice pregame cigar and rink...and now I'm ready for some good football!!

good luck both teams..

Cowboys - 34
Packers - 20

[jpa0741]

Super Hyped for this game!!

Had me a nice pregame cigar and rink...and now I'm ready for some good football!!

good luck both teams..

Cowboys - 34
Packers - 20

How many rinks did you have.:D

[DoctaJ]

Hmm, seems like the streams are being hammered :r Not surprising I guess since there are so many people w/o NFL Network

[hornitosmonster]

How many rinks did you have.:D

LOL :al

[jagmqt]

Hmm, seems like the streams are being hammered :r Not surprising I guess since there are so many people w/o NFL Network

SORRY....Sorry if I built hopes up over channelsurfing.net....it took me 20 minutes to load a choppy channel, and there is dutch subtitles on the bottom of the screen...but choppy Packers it will be...

Honest, for the Colts game, it was two clicks and perfect stream...I guess the word is out and the traffic is up...

jag

[ComicBookFreak]

....and to top it off....channelsurfing.net is running realllll slow.


i hope it doesnt go down with all the traffic it will be handling tonight:D

If you opened you window for the game early you might still get it. If not looks like the site is so busy you may not get to see it there.

CBF

[backwoods]

well, i got it workin...kinda


this is a big change goin from watchin last weeks game agains the lions on my 120" projection screen to this media player 5" screen:r

[DoctaJ]

SORRY....Sorry if I built hopes up over channelsurfing.net....it took me 20 minutes to load a choppy channel, and there is dutch subtitles on the bottom of the screen...but choppy Packers it will be...

Honest, for the Colts game, it was two clicks and perfect stream...I guess the word is out and the traffic is up...

jag

I'm using a SopCast channel from my2p2. Its nothing pretty, but it will do to have in the background :tu

[backwoods]

SORRY....Sorry if I built hopes up over channelsurfing.net....it took me 20 minutes to load a choppy channel, and there is dutch subtitles on the bottom of the screen...but choppy Packers it will be...

Honest, for the Colts game, it was two clicks and perfect stream...I guess the word is out and the traffic is up...

jag

try the other stream...no subtitles
and not as choppy

[boonedoggle]

if they would ever stop BSing and kick the ball off....:mad:

[kvm]

Yep, not having any luck getting on. :mad:

[backwoods]

If you opened you window for the game early you might still get it. If not looks like the site is so busy you may not get to see it there.

CBF


ya...i clicked on at 6:30:tu

[jpa0741]

So they only show parts of the game?:confused:

[taltos]

There is also a stream at nfl.com. No idea if it costs anything.

[NCRadioMan]

So they only show parts of the game?:confused:

That's only on the NFL.com feed.

[Savvy]

Packer defense hasn't looked too impressive thus far...

[jagmqt]

There is also a stream at nfl.com. No idea if it costs anything.

BRILLIANT...

I don't know how long it's gonna let me watch, but it's crystal clear on the nfl.com feed...live game!

jag


EDIT : aw damn...they do "live look-ins" on the game....

[backwoods]

welp...lets do something here, everyone take a guess what the total of the 2 scores at the end of the game will be. the closest without going over gets a 5er of sticks from me.

for those of you that are cowboys fans...that means if the final is 7 to 14...the number would be 21:D

you only get one guess and you have till the end of the first quarter....go!:ss

[jpa0741]

welp...lets do something here, everyone take a guess what the total of the 2 scores at the end of the game will be. the closest without going over gets a 5er of sticks from me.

for those of you that are cowboys fans...that means if the final is 7 to 14...the number would be 21:D

you only get one guess and you have till the end of the first quarter....go!:ss


I will say 30.

[taltos]

I will give 42 a try.

[ResIpsa]

37 is my guess

[NCRadioMan]

55 points (posted just before the first play of the second qtr.) :D

[backwoods]

touchdown pack!

[backwoods]

55 points (posted just before the first play of the second qtr.) :D


i still show 1 second on the first quarter:hn

[Savvy]

Our defense is pathetic...I'm completely in support of onsiding it and trying to keep it in our offenses hands all game long...we have a chance then...

[NCRadioMan]

i still show 1 second on the first quarter:hn

Cowboys td coming up! :D

[backwoods]

Cowboys td coming up! :D

dam you lol:r


this internet feed must be like 10 minutes behind....cuz on here they still havent scored




guessing is now closed

[NCRadioMan]

dam you lol:r


this internet feed must be like 10 minutes behind....cuz on here they still havent scored




guessing is now closed

No worries, nothing to see after that except a Favre interception just happened. Farve isn't looking too good this evening. I'll stop giving you the future now. :D

[RGD]

Well I know it's not live video - but it's better than nothing - it's what I watch when I can't see the game live:

Game Center (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?season=2007&week=REG13&game_id=29371)

In case the link does not work - go here to the Cowboys Home (http://www.dallascowboys.com/home.cfm) page - over to the right click on Cowboys Game Center


Ron

[ComicBookFreak]

Fasano dropped the ball. Bad Challenge.

CBF

[hornitosmonster]

Cowboys about to open a can of you know what up...Or I should say they are opening up that can :D

[ComicBookFreak]

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i171/etw926/gifto.gif

[NCRadioMan]

Favre is out with an injury right now. He hurt his hand on a helmet on the interception. This game is over, imo. The Coyboys have established themselves as THE team to beat in the NFC.

[jpa0741]

Favre is out with an injury right now. He hurt his hand on a helmet on the interception. This game is over, imo.

:tpd: OVER!

[Savvy]

Favre's hurt...not playing this series...oh well he wasn't playing well anyway. Let's see what Rodgers can do...

















I'm thinking about going to package up my 5er....

[jaharr]

Yup, I agree, game over.

[Simplified]

Fing A the guy I am playing in FF has TO and Ryan Grant and has 38 points in the first half!!!!! How about some defense or a game like in Pittsburgh last week!:mad:

[ComicBookFreak]

Favre is out with an injury right now. He hurt his hand on a helmet on the interception. This game is over, imo. The Coyboys have established themselves as THE team to beat in the NFC.

As Santino Morella would say, "They hava opened upa cana de ass whip!" :r

http://csswrestling.free.fr/Champions/intercontinental_champion.jpg

[backwoods]

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i171/etw926/gifto.gif



how did i know that pic was gonna show up:r

[Simplified]

how did i know that pic was gonna show up:r

How about no more passes to TO. Take all the pictures you want!!

[Savvy]

Whoa Rodgers touchdown pass...maybe not completely out of it yet...

[Savvy]

Packer's defensive stop...did hell just freeze over?

[backwoods]

Packer's defensive stop...did hell just freeze over?


im not there yet:r ill let ya know ina few minutes

[NCRadioMan]

This game is over, imo. The Coyboys have established themselves as THE team to beat in the NFC.

Uh oh, I may have spoken too soon! http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/images_cs3/icons/icon12.gif


However, 4 more points and I win! Woo hoo!

[Savvy]

Packer touchdown...


This game is not over yet






GO PACK GO!

[ComicBookFreak]

Uh oh, I may have spoken too soon! http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/images_cs3/icons/icon12.gif


However, 4 more points and I win! Woo hoo!

It wasn't you it was me jinxing them when I posted the TO picture.

CBF

[NCRadioMan]

It wasn't you it was me jinxing them when I posted the TO picture.

CBF

:r The Pack definitely have the "mo" right now. Dallas seems to be pissing it away, now.

[Savvy]

Thanks for the ball TO :tu

[ComicBookFreak]

It wasn't you it was me jinxing them when I posted the TO picture.



Told you I jinxed them.:r

CBF

[Savvy]

That call was weak....you Cowboy fans can't even deny that...

[hornitosmonster]

Weak..maybe..but if it was Jennings you would be calling for it. Right? If Collinsworth was the receiver he would want it.

[hornitosmonster]

you gotta give the Cowboys props. We went after the Packers best in Al Harris...and he was really lost tonight.

[Savvy]

Weak..maybe..but if it was Jennings you would be calling for it. Right? If Collinsworth was the receiver he would want it.

I don't think so, I thought it was incidental contact. I'd probably be ok with it if it was Jennings who got tripped up.


How about the 54 yd Crosby kick?

[Savvy]

you gotta give the Cowboys props. We went after the Packers best in Al Harris...and he was really lost tonight.

Yeah I was not impressed with Harris' game tonight...

[hornitosmonster]

How about the 54 yd Crosby kick?

Great kicker but you almost have to go for it when it is that close on 4th down.

Anyways, good game and nice comeback by the Pac. I hope Farve is ok. He is a good guy and I would hate to see him get hurt and have his season cut short.

[ComicBookFreak]

Nice game from Green Bay. Hope Favre is ok. Rodgers showed some great potential tonight, I was definately impressed with him.

CBF

[Savvy]

Great kicker but you almost have to go for it when it is that close on 4th down.

Anyways, good game and nice comeback by the Pac. I hope Farve is ok. He is a good guy and I would hate to see him get hurt and have his season cut short.

Yeah I was kind of surprised they tried to kick that when they only had to gain about an inch. I was impressed that he made it though.

I'm hoping Favre is ok too, hoping they kept him out just to make sure he didn't get hurt any worse in this game. Hopefully we'll have him for the rest of the season.

I was impressed by Rodger's play, he was really impressive.

I'm just glad the Pack kept this game close, I was semi-expecting a blowout, especially during the first half. We kept it close with injuries, and it ended up being a pretty good game. Maybe we can do it again in January? Hopefully we'll be healthy by then.


Sgt. Smoky I'll try to get the 5er mailed out to you tomorrow.

[Puffy69]

Cowboys Baby!!!!!

[icehog3]

Cowboys Baby!!!!!

Good game for your boys Freddy...might see these 2 meet again in the NFC Championship game.

[King James]

Good Game. Didn't turn out how I wanted it but we could meet 'em again. Played fairly well with missing so many starters (including Favre) although that isn't an excuse... but didn't help the Pack. Would love to see these two teams meet again in the playoffs at full health. At least Rogers showed me he can play pretty well

[icehog3]

Good Game. Didn't turn out how I wanted it but we could meet 'em again. Played fairly well with missing so many starters (including Favre) although that isn't an excuse... but didn't help the Pack. Would love to see these two teams meet again in the playoffs at full health. At least Rogers showed me he can play pretty well

Pretty good chance I'd say Jimmy, best 2 teams in the NFC this season.

[newcigarz]

Cowboys Baby!!!!!

:tpd: What he said! Go 'Boys :tu

[backwoods]

55 points (posted just before the first play of the second qtr.) :D


looks like 64 is the final number(i didnt get to finish watching the game last night:hn). Pm me ur addy and Ill get this 5er out to ya!:tu

[Studebaker]

I hope Favre can heal in time to play next weekend. And it just sucks that he was hurt in Dallas, of all places. He just has some bad juju there. I'll always wonder what might have been if he hadn't been injured.

[RenoB]

The Cowboys were definately ON last night, and unfortunately the Packers didn't play like they can. I had fun tho, watching with a couple of buds - eating, drinking, smoking and cussing up a storm. Glad you could join us by the firepit King James and thanks for the HU #2!

[icehog3]

The Cowboys were definately ON last night, and unfortunately the Packers didn't play like they can. I had fun tho, watching with a couple of buds - eating, drinking, smoking and cussing up a storm. Glad you could join us by the firepit King James and thanks for the HU #2!

Man Cave!!! :r

[Puffy69]

I was on the edge of my seat last quarter...I love Favre and hated to see him get hurt but when the put Rodgers in, I was think we got this now for sure..That dude was a bumb in College but must have been taking notes from Brett..He showed up and gave it a good run and had me worried for a hot minute..Great game overall..

[RenoB]

Man Cave!!! :r

Actually, FirePit, OutSide!!!

I was on the edge of my seat last quarter...I love Favre and hated to see him get hurt but when the put Rodgers in, I was think we got this now for sure..That dude was a bumb in College but must have been taking notes from Brett..He showed up and gave it a good run and had me worried for a hot minute..Great game overall..

Local radio called him A Rodg :r

He certainly gave GB fans a higher level of confidence.

[King James]

Actually, FirePit, OutSide!!!



However, it will be a man-igloo when we get some snow... right? :ss :r

[Dgar]

I enjoyed the game, and was glad to see GB make a game out of it after they fell behind.

And a BIG thank you to those that posted the online links, I would have missed the game otherwise, This was the first time I've watched a game online, I watched it at NFL.com and it was great!

can we say all say " the 11-1 Cowboys" sounds nice... :ss

[jagmqt]

It's a sad day.

jag

[larryinlc]

It's a sad day.

jag


Actually, no. I had no illusions of winning without KGB and Woodson. To lose Favre early didn't help matters either in a difficult place to play against a very good Dallas team. They played a respectable game considering. They'll get healthy again and we'll probably meet again in the playoffs.

My complaint...they played like they had to score 50 points in the beginning which was a mistake. They should have used what got them to 10-1. A poor game plan in my opinion. We will do better. 10-2 is still a very good start and I'm proud of what this team has accomplished thus far.

The Cowboys are class team. The Patriots would have rubbed our noses in the dirt.

Larry

[Sergeant Smoky]

Great prize!!!!!:ss More than I would have expected:ss. Thanks!!! These are all smokes that I have enjoyed B4. And now to you I will enjoy again sooner that I thought.

[RenoB]

Great prize!!!!!:ss More than I would have expected:ss. Thanks!!! These are all smokes that I have enjoyed B4. And now to you I will enjoy again sooner that I thought.

Eh, you got lucky this time :)

Enjoy those winnings, the beans look awesome.

Savy, you've got to make a MoB herf sometime - what are you doing this Saturday?

[Savvy]

Eh, you got lucky this time :)

Enjoy those winnings, the beans look awesome.

Savy, you've got to make a MoB herf sometime - what are you doing this Saturday?

Working at the ski place up here. I'd really like to make a MoB herf though. I'll definitely try to make one in the summer, sooner than that if possible though