Just be carefull. The medium filler private stock ( the ones with the pink label and the PS on t hem) are not nearly as good as the red lable lon filler seconds which are very good . They are a little light for me now adays but i still really enjoy them.
2nds aren't all there cracked up to be.
- Thread starter HVACMAN
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Just be carefull. The medium filler private stock ( the ones with the pink label and the PS on t hem) are not nearly as good as the red lable lon filler seconds which are very good . They are a little light for me now adays but i still really enjoy them.
I am extremely skeptical about this statement, probably because I read different on CI as well as got some bad info regarding RP from a B&M recently. I am wondering if profit may be driving some statements and would hate online deals like the seconds if I was selling the originals for 4 times the price in many cases.
Directly from CI:
"These Seconds are labeled as such because they have been rejected strictly for cosmetic reasons. The wrappers are a little splotchy here or have a slight discoloration there. The blend is the same, and I mean identical. You could smoke them blindfolded and detect no difference. The beauty is that the price is far, far less. Just keep in mind: this is not a regular production cigar."
Someone has the story wrong, I think!??
In any event, it might be true, but I am enjoying the hell out of my seconds.
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Argh, I had this exact problem when I ordered a 5-pack from cigarbid. I had tried the red-label PS from my local B&M, and when the package arrived from cbid they were the pink-label and didn't taste nearly as good. I always get the feeling that if there's a lowest-end version of a product, that's going to be the one that CI/cbid sends to me.
I have relatively good luck with 2nds and "over runs". Gives me a chance to try a number of them and if I like them I can use this knowledge to step up and try the "1st". Also friends are tentative to pull an expensive stick out of the humidor, but enjoy the seconds. To me labels and blemishes dont drive the taste and since I am still learning what is what it makes the education a little more cost effective. I wouldn't let one or two bad 2nds kill the deal on future 2nd purchases
TT :cb
TT :cb
craigchilds
Evolving Lead Gorilla
I haven't had a lot of successes with 2nd's either. The El Creditos I bought last year were very pale comparisons to the LGC Series 'R', and the one bundle of Consuegras I tried tended to be bland (although with a few really good sticks mixed in).
My question has always been: Why buy 2nd's when you can get such good internet deals on 1sts?
Example - right now I'm working my way through these very good sticks in the humi:
1) Padron 2000 ($3 ea-TNT Cigars)
2) CAO Brazilia Piranha ($2.50 ea-JR Cigars)
3) 5 Vegas Series "A" ($1.80 ea-CigarBid)
4) Fire by Rock Patel ($1 ea-CigarBid)
5) Excalibur I ($2 ea-CigarBid)
6) 5 Vegas Gold ($2 ea-CigarBid)
7) JR Ultimate Alternatives ($1.50 ea-JR Cigars)
My question has always been: Why buy 2nd's when you can get such good internet deals on 1sts?
Example - right now I'm working my way through these very good sticks in the humi:
1) Padron 2000 ($3 ea-TNT Cigars)
2) CAO Brazilia Piranha ($2.50 ea-JR Cigars)
3) 5 Vegas Series "A" ($1.80 ea-CigarBid)
4) Fire by Rock Patel ($1 ea-CigarBid)
5) Excalibur I ($2 ea-CigarBid)
6) 5 Vegas Gold ($2 ea-CigarBid)
7) JR Ultimate Alternatives ($1.50 ea-JR Cigars)
I can only answer for myself in saying that I have tried the first three and would pick a RP second for 2 bucks over all three on that list for free, although the Padron2000 is somewhat decent. Got 3 and 6 for free with the CI humi for 15 bucks and didn't like them at all.
craigchilds
Evolving Lead Gorilla
To each his own, obviously. I've only had the RP Vintage 1998 Euro blend that CI sells, and it was ok but not something I'd seek after again.
txmatt
Still Smitty's biotch!
3x3's (and 4x4's), like Private Stock are cigars made by Davidoff with tobacco not quite pretty enough for their flagship brands. The tobacco alone might be called a "second" however the rolled cigars are first quality - like Fuente, Davidoff does not sell any seconds/rejects.
A second is a cigar that has been rejected due to flaws; draw problems on a test machine, visable flat spots or voids, low weight, poor cap, sometimes simply discoloration.
Some distributors are now selling "2nds" that really aren't. The cigars are made from lower grade tobacco rolled by inexperienced rollers; the factory then gets away with avoiding QC check since they are sold as seconds. A cigar factory can not stay in business by wasting high grade tobacco destined for $8 cigars by generating hundreds of thousands of "2nds" with it. This is particularly important when using a finite supply of "7 year old vintage tobacco". You fire or demote rollers that make seconds with the expensive leaf, and you reject the ugly tobacco before sending it to the talented rollers. Let me stop beating around the bush and just say :BS on RP.
Just as I have a very hard time believing Rocky Patel is still using 1990 and 1992 vintage tobacco, I can't believe his factory produces as many seconds as he is selling. Famous and Cigars International are selling far too many of these cigars. It is a marketing gimmick. A better gimmick IMHO mind you than the latest weapon, jar, or chest that Gurkha uses to distribute their cigars; still a gimmick. I don't believe many/any of the cigars sold as seconds to his boxed cigars were ever destined to wear the band. I do believe the blend is the same, so if you are happy with the cigar for the money the gimmicks don't really matter. I do enjoy several of Patel's cigars but his marketing has become annoying to me.
Connies and Old Fashioned are true seconds, and you often have to pitch 20% of the sticks in a bundle because they are unsmokable. Huge voids are frequent in the ones you can smoke. Weighing cigars is a quick way of pulling out the rejects for the huge factories such as Altadis and General Cigars. The low weight cigars get packaged as Connies.
I have found enough great tasting, defect free, first quality cigars available at the same price as seconds that it just doesn't seem worthwhile to mess with them.
:2
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^ Great post
Thanks for the information on the 3x3's (9's)..... Interesting stuff to remeber when I'm at the B/M looking to pick up a few inexpensive smokes.
Quote
"I can't believe his factory produces as many seconds as he is selling."
I cant believe he's producing that many seconds and staying in business, unless......... It's part of the business plan....
Thanks for the information on the 3x3's (9's)..... Interesting stuff to remeber when I'm at the B/M looking to pick up a few inexpensive smokes.
Quote
"I can't believe his factory produces as many seconds as he is selling."
I cant believe he's producing that many seconds and staying in business, unless......... It's part of the business plan....
papajohn67
Dead Man Walking
Some of you guys are just to darn fussy. 2nds, heck sometime give the 3rds a try. I'd be willing to part with the whole box of these or even consider breaking it up into samplers....cheap!!:ss
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There's a lot of smokin' left on those things!! :ss :r
craigchilds
Evolving Lead Gorilla
Unless, of course, a lot of $8 cigars are really not that much different than the $2 cigars, except for the fancy boxes and marketing campaigns. Personally, I think 90% of the time, a tobacco leaf is just a tobacco leaf. There's way too much hoopla about 7- or 9- or 12-year old leaves floating around in the trade advertisements these days.
I'm not saying all cigars are the same. A Padron 1926 has higher quality leaves than a Don Kiki Green Label -- and it's rolled by more experienced employees, so you're much likelier to get a consistent, quality smoke. But I'm not sold on the idea that an RP Vintage is that much better leaf than RP Fire.
Some people call me a fool, but I'd bet that the JR Alternatives to HdM Excaliburs are the exact same cigar as the "real thing". To me, they taste the same. Plus, it is a known fact that JR Ultimates are made in the same factory, and my theory is that they produce a certain number of cigars of the same blend. If they can sell $2M at the premium price with the premium label, then so be it. They sell another $2M to JR to sell under the alternatives label. According to JR website, this is how Lew sold Punch "Alternatives" and Royal Jamaica "Alternatives" for years.
Now, do I think the JR Alternatives to Fuente - or the TNT knock offs of Padron -- are the real thing? No, but I think it happens more often than a lot of people want to admit - especially with the big conglomerate companies, like General Cigar.
The cigar biz is a lot like the perfume industry. Advertising sells, and the final go-to-market price has a lot to do with how the product is "perceived", regardless of any actual tangible measurable value.
Just my opinion... of course.
This has been a great thread and and I have a feeling there is a lot of truth on both sides. I think the bottom line is that if it tastes good, you are smoking a good cigar.
I can't imagine how RP is producing so many seconds myself unless he has some rollers who are drunk when they come to work. In any event, my second bundle of the month is arriving tommorow.
I can't imagine how RP is producing so many seconds myself unless he has some rollers who are drunk when they come to work. In any event, my second bundle of the month is arriving tommorow.
wharfrathoss
old man down
i'm a big fan of the old fashioneds in double & single digits (partagas, punch/hoyo)-have found maybe 2 plugged in 6 bndls, not a bad ratio-el creditos are not LGC Serie R 2nds, they are rolled in the same factory as LGC, but am not sure if the same blend as the regulars-as for the rest, or the concept of 2nds in general, who knows for sure?-smoke what ya like & like what ya smoke-personally i get off on a good $1 cigar
Puro_Angler
ChestBeater
I've only tried the el credito 2nds and Super premium 2nds (hoyo and punch maduro rothschild 2nds from Villazon factory). The Super premiums are pretty good and I'll occasionally find one at the bottom of the humi which is a real treat after 3 years. El creditos were flat, but made good offerings to non-experienced smokers. My old neighbor seemed to like those.