Final Kitty litter humidity results

T

tfar

Evolving Lead Gorilla
Inspired by Scott (shilala) I took regular readings of my vino with kitty litter. To see the set-up and read more details refer to the "Extremely boring" thread, please. Below I will post the accumulated readings for all to peruse. Scott's interpretation is that the KL gives off humidity very slowly. Too slowly for his taste. On the other hand he says that the beads do hold a lot of water (80% of their weight) and are thus a good reservoir.

My own impression and interpretation of the readings is that they give off humidity fast enough that I need not worry about the changes when I open the door even for a few minutes. The beads will recover to within two percent in less than one hour and in about five hours they recover to the equilibrium. Given that the cigars and boxes probably hold at least as much water as the beads (KL) their humidity mass (if I can say so) should be stable enough.

The way I have arranged things now -check out the other thread for photos- I lose no space in the lower compartment, and I sacrifice the volume of a half box of cigars in the upper compartment; less than a Hydra.

I am looking forward to doing tests with the RH beads Scott kindly offered to send me and will report on my results. If I get to it I would also like to set up a test for recovery time with KL. In this test I will take only KL in a tupperware or ziplock and I will see how fast it recovers when I open it for two minutes. I will then do the same thing with RH beads.

Altogether, the ideal solution would probably be to have a vino with a hydra filled with polygel for longterm low maintenance and to use, in addition, a combination of KL (for water reservoir) and RH or MHbeads (for quick recovery of our anal retentive obsessions).

For now, the KL I have in my vino cost me $5 and the socks I put them in cost me $1. Let's be generous and not count the water. ;)

So far, I am a happy camper and over time I will certainly upgrade to the optimum solution given above because I'm a perfectionist.

If you are not totally anal or live in a particularly dry climate where water reservoir is important, give the Exquisicat Pearl Fresh KL a try. My guess is you won't regret it.

Cheers,

Till

2/29

72 71 this is after replenishing

3/01

71 70 at 9:40pm
72 71 at 110pm

3/02

71 71 at 11:45am before opening - after opening 3min it was 68 up and 69 down
70 71 at 12:45pm just took an hour or less to recover
69 71 at 6:00pm
62 71 at 11:45pm here we see a strange drop in the upper smaller part, while lower part stays super stable.

3/03 69 73 at 2:45am
71 75 at 9:05am It was raining heavily here.
71 75 at 2:00pm
71 75 at 50pm
72 75 at 80pm just before opening
68 74 at 82pm after closing the door
71 74 at 9:00pm recovered within 40 minutes
71 74 at 11:50pm

3/04

70 73 at 0:55am
70 71 at 12:30pm the weather today was sunny and relatively warm/dry
70 70 at 3:30pm
69 71 at 6:00pm
69 71 at 7:30pm
70 70 at 11:50pm

3/05

68 70 at 11:50am weather today looks like it's gonna be like yesterday
68 71 at 3:00pm
67 71 at 8:45pm
66 71 at 11:50pm

3/06

67 72 at 3:00am It was raining all night and most of the day but it is cold.
68 71 at 11:50am
68 71 at 2:50pm
69 71 at 5:40pm opened for 30 seconds
67 70 at 9:30pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/07

67 70 at 12:05pm
68 70 at 2:35pm
67 70 at 4:30pm
67 69 at 7:15pm
68 70 at 9:15pm
67 70 at 11:50pm

3/08

67 69 at 10:50am
68 69 at 2:10pm
67 69 at 6:30pm
67 68 at 9:00pm
65 69 at 11:30pm

3/09

66 68 at 1:45pm
66 69 at 3:5pm
66 69 at 4:30pm
58 62 at 4:33pm after opening for three minutes
63 66 at 5:15pm
65 70 at 9:15pm
66 70 at 11:15pm

3/10

67 70 at 12:45am
67 70 at 2:30am
68 70 at 15pm rainy day and especially pouring overnight
69 69 at 5:30pm
72 69 at 8:30pm
73 69 at 11:30pm

3/11

74 70 at 11:30am
72 70 at 9:12PM
72 70 at 11:15pm

3/12

72 70 at 1:15pm
70 70 at 3:00pm
70 70 at 6:05pm
69 70 at 11:30pm

3/13

70 71 at 1:00pm
70 71 at 2:30pm It is damp and humid in Austin today in room humidity 63/64
70 71 at 6:30pm
70 70 at 11:30pm

3/14

70 70 at 11:00am
70 68 at 3:00pm
69 69 at 6:45pm
70 69 at 11:50pm

They recovered rather quickly after opening and taking the cigars out of the lower compartment to take the pic for Scott. 3/14 was a sunny and dry day, too, very warm at 93 outside.

Today they are at 70 in the upper and 70 in the lower with a temp of around 68F.

Till
 
Thanks for the information! Right now, I'm only using the KL beads in my Vinotemp. I've got a 5' or so Savoy rectangular black plastic humidifier that I gutted of the green foam and filled with the KL beads and two knee high stockings (donated by my wife) that are partially filled with the KL beads. They are approximately 4" long and about the same in circumference, both tied at the end with a slip knot. Funny thing, I've not had to add any distilled water to them other than when I first put them in to use and I'm holding a very steady 68-70% RH.
 
Nozero, how long have you had the vino + KL set-up for? I wonder how long it will take before I have to refill.

I also gutted all my sponge humidifiers, I had four, and put KL in them. Works great in my cigar tobacco humidor. This is my former cigar humidor that I know use to keep ziplock bags of tobacco. I keep it around 60%. It smells even better when you open the humidor now than when I had cigars in there. :)

Till
 
I forgot to say the KL beads I talk about I have only seen at Petsmart. They are actually round, little spheres, not crushed crystals. A 7 or 7.5lbs jug is $14.

Till
 
Good work, Till. :tu
Your "real world" test results really help.
They've reinforced what I found in my tests exactly.
An important thing to consider is the ambient temperature and RH. You live down south.
The relative humidity outside your vino probably never dips below 65% all year, am I correct in assuming that? If not, please correct me, but even if it's 55% or 60%, it really makes no matter towards my point.
You found that the KL recovers very slowly, so did I.
You only opened the vino once a day.
So in actuality, the KL really didn't have much of a job to do. It only had to recover a 5% to 15% RH change and although it didn't respond quickly, it still fell within an acceptable range for your uses.
So I'm going to say, for argument's sake, The KL could almost recover a 10% RH variation in 5 hours.
If I opened my humi twice a day, or maybe three or 4 times a day because I like to play with my cigars and my house was at 42% relative humidity, do you think Kitty Litter could get the job done?
Those parameters I mentioned are pretty much spot on for my house.
Another consideration...
Once again, correct me if I'm wrong...
Your vino is 2.5 cubic feet. You used 7 pounds of Kitty Litter.
My wine coolers are each 6.13 cubic feet. I'd need somewhere on the order of 15 pounds of kitty litter to get the job done IF my ambient conditions were the same as yours.
They're not, they're far worse and the KL would have to replace twice as much humidity each time I open the door.
That means I now need 30 pounds of KL to do the same job as you're getting.
Now another thing. I open my cooler twice a day. So if I want results as good as you got I'll need 60 pounds of KL to do the job.
Or I can use one and a half pounds of RHbeads, or one pound of MHbeads.
Granted I oversimplified, plus I may have even overembellished.
My point is that you have a very mild environment and the KL doesn't work very well, but it's okay enough for now even if you'd like things to work a little better.
Now, to compound the problem, very few folks live in your conditions.
I live in PA and everyone north of me has even worse winter conditions.
So realistically, KL beads may work (albeit poorly) for 10 to 15% of people in America and none of the people in Canada.

So as a solution for humidification of humidors they will not work at all for most people. Doesn't matter how much you use. They simply cannot give up enough water vapor to recover the enclosed space unless it's kept shut 100% of the time. If said enclosed space has any leaks at all, it may even have a difficult time recovering that.
That's what I found out, and that's what your numbers showed.

That does not mean that Kitty Litter can't be used to our advantage.
I think it's an EXCELLENT choice if it's used to augment RHbeads or MHbeads or a hydra or PGgel. It's because of what you said. It holds a LOT of water. It can lend a hand to your other humifying device.
In dry climates it would help our other beads to work to their fullest at all times provided it's conditioned to the same RH%age as the main device.

So it does have a place, but in order to use it correctly and to our advantage, we're going to need to know a lot of things and understand a lot of things about Humidity.
Of the 10 to 15% of the people who can use KLbeads to their advantage, there probably aren't very many people who want the trouble.

I don't want to sound so negative, but the honest truth is that Kitty Litter is not a good media for humidifying our humidors at all.
Compared to any of the other products available, they are not even a value.
To get the same benefit as one pound of RHbeads I'd need approximately 60 pounds of Kitty Litter in my Wine Cooler. That's 60 bucks worth. Beads are 30 bucks and do a better job.

I'm not ripping on you at all, Till. I just don't want folks to get the impression that Kitty Litter is worthwhile. You are very fortunate that they work well enough.
Here at my house they just won't work well enough to use them at all.
I'm literally better off to set out pans of water. They evaporate quicker.

Last but not least...
I've gone so far as to calculate how many Kitty Litter beads it takes to augment our RHbeads. 4 ounces of Kitty Litter conditioned to 65% holds almost exactly as much water as 1 pound of RHbeads.
I've done a bunch of other very confusing calculations that suggest I need far less than 4 ounces of KLbeads to augment 1 pound of RHbeads, but I'll leave that alone.
The key here is this...
The KL has to be conditioned identically to the RHbeads or it will flood any chemically altered "set point" beads time and time again allowing the humidity to increase in the humidor to whatever the KL beads are. If someone simply soaked the KL beads to 100% of their capacity, they'll create big problems with their "set point" beads.

That's another kicker, isn't it?

So if I tell folks "Use four ounces of KLbeads to augment your beads" and the folks soak KL beads and saturate them, they'll flood their perfectly good "set point" (Heartfelt) beads and their humidity will go sky high.

See how dangerous a little information can be?
Another good argument for saying "Don't use Kitty Litter."
That's a lot of stuff, isn't it?
Sorry. :(
 
I tried reading all the information posted but I have to get up half way and come back and read the rest I think I have something called ADD lol. I came to the conclusion that beads are the best thing to use in my vinotemp for humidity, but since you've done tests on the RH and MH beads can you please tell us what are the best beads to get ( best bang for the buck ) RH ? MH ? and from where ? So far I have 1 pounds of heartfelt but I need maybe another 8 oz or another pound.
 
nthuzst said:
so bottom line whats the best thing to use in a vinotemp for humidity ??
Click to expand...
It's a personal decision, really.
But based on all the tests I've done, MHbeads work best, then RHbeads and "set point" beads, then PGgel, and the last on the list would be Kitty Litter.
Those are all passive humidification choices.
Active humidification choices would be things like the Hydra or Moist n Aire.
Personally I use MHbeads and RHbeads right now.
MHbeads are a new product I'm testing and doing trials with, so they aren't available just yet.
Of set point type beads, everyone swears by Heartfelt beads. They're an excellent product from an excellent vendor.
I've just begun offering RHbeads which are a very similar product, but they don't have a set point control chemical in them. That allows them to be more flexible. Anyone can set them to whatever RH%age they like by conditioning them.

I think the ultimate would be a Hydra with an MHbead backup for when the Hydra runs out of water. That'd kick ass.
 
nthuzst said:
I tried reading all the information posted but I have to get up half way and come back and read the rest I think I have something called ADD lol. I came to the conclusion that beads are the best thing to use in my vinotemp for humidity, but since you've done tests on the RH and MH beads can you please tell us what are the best beads to get ( best bang for the buck ) RH ? MH ? and from where ? So far I have 1 pounds of heartfelt but I need maybe another 8 oz or another pound.
Click to expand...
How big is your vinotemp?
One pound of Heartfelt beads should be twice as much as you need.
Measure the inside of your Vino and I'll help you figure it out, K?
 
sounds good thanx its the 28 bottle vinotemp i got from target..me and everyone else :) measurements 24 H 15 W 12 D
 
I decided to take the initiative and figure it out on my own, but I appreciate you willing to help. I need exactly 8 oz but I’m going to put 12 considering the fact I live in Arizona. Time is a scarce resource and we really appreciate the great information you’ve offered us all. Thank you :)
 
Just briefly for now because I have some steaks that need to go on the grill...

I do not use 7lbs but about 2.5lbs of KL.

Humidity inside the house is rarely over 50%. The high humidity from the rainfall we got the other day is unusual. Austin is not Houston. Right now it's 52 and the AC isn't even on. When the AC is on in the summer or the heat in the winter, humidity will be at 50 max.

I will open my humi everyday for three minutes for the next few day and check how quickly it recovers.

Till
 
What kind of steaks, Till? :D
Prime Rib is going on sale tomorrow for $4.99 a pound here but you have to get a whole great big side. I'm gonna get two and cut them into Delmonicos.
I totally love them. :)

Thanks for the extra numbers, it really levels the field a lot more, but I can see at just a glance that Kitty Litter is still going to lose by a landslide when I rub some math on them.

So everyone knows I'm on your side, I should probably mention that I did all my tests hoping to prove that Kitty Litter was an excellent inexpensive alternative.
It just isn't. It's not even a value by comparison with all things considered.
I can crunch the math again, but I'm tired.
I checked my humidity in the house and right now it's 43%. It's cause it's 50 degrees out today.
Usually in the winter it's around 32 even with both humidifiers running.
In the summer it's around 75 degrees and 70% humidity.
I keep my wine coolers at 60/60, but I'm planning to take them to 60/65 here shortly.
I think the wine coolers were 6.13 cu ft each.
Could you crunch the numbers by comparison and see what comes out?
If not I can do it tomorrow. :)


tfar said:
Just briefly for now because I have some steaks that need to go on the grill...

I do not use 7lbs but about 2.5lbs of KL.

Humidity inside the house is rarely over 50%. The high humidity from the rainfall we got the other day is unusual. Austin is not Houston. Right now it's 52 and the AC isn't even on. When the AC is on in the summer or the heat in the winter, humidity will be at 50 max.

I will open my humi everyday for three minutes for the next few day and check how quickly it recovers.

Till
Click to expand...
 
The steaks were two inch thick filet mignons. Salt, pepper and oil. That's it. Accompanied by some potatoes with sweet peas and carrots in a little creme fraiche prepared in the pressure cooker. ;) Was delicious. Now I am going to have a Partagas (NC) Black Label Bravo. This was one of the recommendations from my 4-5 dollar thread.

Back to business.

Scott, you and I agree on almost all points. We agree on what is most likely the optimal method (hydra with MH beads and eventually KL as longterm backup) and we agree on order of efficiency especially in terms of fast recovery i.e. ability to give off humidity quickly (MH, RH/Heartfelt, KL).

What we don't agree on is the 'priceworthiness' of KL and whether it is suitable as a stand-alone product. You say no, I say yes.

Considering that your regular 28 bottle vino will provide very similar basic conditions (even in terms of humidity - it seals well yet provides an exit for superfluous condensation water) whether it is in Chicago or Houston, levels the playing field quite a bit. For regular wood humidors this will be different and KL might even be better because it holds more water unless the thing gets opened every ten minutes like in a cigar bar.

Next point is the ability to recover quickly. My tests were not really a good indicator of that because the periods between measurements were too long and because I opened the door not very often. This is why I said I'd do another round of tests where I will actually take readings after opening it. And I will give you the ambient humidity with it. Still, the question here is: Isn't it sufficient if the humidity in the vino is back to the set point within 5 hours or even 12 hours for that matter?

I think that is sufficient because the cigars and wood boxes are a buffer in and of themselves. In the three minutes the door is open the humidity differential in the actual cigars will be perhaps 0.1 percent points. How could we measure that? Then you close the door and from that moment humidity goes up again until it reaches the set point. So from then on the humidity differential will be smaller than my 0.1 percent. Note that this is an estimate but I cannot imagine it being more. Even if it were as much as the cigars actually loosing three percent of their humidity in three minutes, I don't think that would harm them.

In your math the recovery speed is very important. I presume that for cigars in a real world application -after all everybody says not to sweat it if we are between 60 and 70 - the recovery speed difference does not play a role because of the relative humidity inertia of the cigars in their boxes.

If this is the case, then you will still need perhaps 2.5 times more KL than heartfelt beads. Given that heartfelt beads are 15 times more expensive, if we factor the quantity out we still got a factor of 6 times more expensive.

Now space, our usual botl has a vino or something even smaller (sorry for all the super big spenders here, this is a mindset of an ordinary man). If you arrange the beads smartly i.e. better to have several bead containers in flexible "gloves" just like you make them, you can fit those very nicely between the boxes without loosing any valuable space. You are just filling up crevices that exist anyway and where no box would fit anyhow.

So, in conclusion, KL is certainly not the end all be all of a cigar storage solution. BUT for most if not all vino situations (i.e. you don't live in Arizona and you don't have your door open for half an hour every day) it will work just fine at an unbeatable price. Thus it is worth trying it out before anything else. If you like it, great. If it doesn't work, ok, you lost $14 (or even less if you share with a botl) but you can give it to a neighbor with a cat. If money doesn't matter and you are an anal perfectionist, get a hydra plus RH or MH beads right away. I am an anal perfectonist but not super anal and money DOES matter. :2

Cheers,

Till
 
tfar said:
Nozero, how long have you had the vino + KL set-up for? I wonder how long it will take before I have to refill.

I also gutted all my sponge humidifiers, I had four, and put KL in them. Works great in my cigar tobacco humidor. This is my former cigar humidor that I know use to keep ziplock bags of tobacco. I keep it around 60%. It smells even better when you open the humidor now than when I had cigars in there. :)

Till
Click to expand...

Ten days to two weeks, guessing. I started with just the gutted humidifier and 3-4 days later added the stockings w/o wetting. The RH dropped about 4-5 points so I misted one of the stockings and put it back in, didn't need mist the other and have yet to do so. I'll know better after a few months.

And I got the KL at Petsmart for about the same price, actually my wife picked it up for me. It was funny, she says "you're going to put kitty litter in your Vinotemp"? The look on her face was priceless.
 
nozero said:
Ten days to two weeks, guessing. I started with just the gutted humidifier and 3-4 days later added the stockings w/o wetting. The RH dropped about 4-5 points so I misted one of the stockings and put it back in, didn't need mist the other and have yet to do so. I'll know better after a few months.

And I got the KL at Petsmart for about the same price, actually my wife picked it up for me. It was funny, she says "you're going to put kitty litter in your Vinotemp"? The look on her face was priceless.
Click to expand...

I wonder what the look on her face might have been if she knew the price of the 'other' beads. :ss

So, this means you have them in there for less time than I do. Please report back on how stable they are and how well (i.e. how fast) they recover when you open the door. Of course, I am not asking you to become as ridiculous as Scott and I. :D

Just try and be observant of what happens. Also make sure your hygros are calibrated.

Till
 
shilala said:
It's a personal decision, really.
But based on all the tests I've done, MHbeads work best, then RHbeads and "set point" beads, then PGgel, and the last on the list would be Kitty Litter.
Those are all passive humidification choices.
Active humidification choices would be things like the Hydra or Moist n Aire.
Personally I use MHbeads and RHbeads right now.
MHbeads are a new product I'm testing and doing trials with, so they aren't available just yet.
Of set point type beads, everyone swears by Heartfelt beads. They're an excellent product from an excellent vendor.
I've just begun offering RHbeads which are a very similar product, but they don't have a set point control chemical in them. That allows them to be more flexible. Anyone can set them to whatever RH%age they like by conditioning them.

I think the ultimate would be a Hydra with an MHbead backup for when the Hydra runs out of water. That'd kick ass.
Click to expand...


For the past couple of years I have been using 65% beads (Around 30 lbs) spread throughout the 2 lockers and display cab along with a Cigar Oasis II in each of the 3 units. It's about 150 CF total space. There are 42 Locker doors that open plus 2 large sliding drawers in the locker units plus large glass sliders and a couple doors in the display. Has too many places for RH to escape so passive alone does not work. It's all about the environment. In the summer ambient RH in the room is in the 50's. Let the beads get much drier and and fill the CO's maybe once a month. In the winter like now low 30's... refill the CO's at least weekly sometimes more often.

My other cab is about 27 cf. Keep 4 lbs of beads and a CO II in there as well. It has a great seal. Refill the CO maybe once a month in the winter.

Coolers are perfect for beads. Nice seal. Fill em to capacity and there is a sub CF of air to rehumidify. Unless I'm on the wrong track here.. the amount of humidification material you need is a function of your unused space more than the total space as the RH seal on a container aproaches perfection. Assuming your cigars are at your desired RH, in a cooler that is basically full you are only having to rehumidify a very small amount of cube.

The one factor you guys don't mention is the fullness or lack thereof of your cabinets. My experience has been that if you have a large airspace (like in my display cab). It's just not prcatical to operate with passive humidification alone. Too much recovery time, too much of the bead charge used.
 
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nthuzst said:
I decided to take the initiative and figure it out on my own, but I appreciate you willing to help. I need exactly 8 oz but I’m going to put 12 considering the fact I live in Arizona. Time is a scarce resource and we really appreciate the great information you’ve offered us all. Thank you :)
Click to expand...
Yes, 8 ounces should do it. I thought you already had a pound, I must have misunderstood.
I'd suggest you consider a pound and make up little stocking bags and spread it around. The more surface area you can make out of your beads the better.
I have twice what I need in all my stuff, but I'm funny like that. Makes me feel safer. :)
 
tfar said:
I wonder what the look on her face might have been if she knew the price of the 'other' beads. :ss

So, this means you have them in there for less time than I do. Please report back on how stable they are and how well (i.e. how fast) they recover when you open the door. Of course, I am not asking you to become as ridiculous as Scott and I. :D

Just try and be observant of what happens. Also make sure your hygros are calibrated.

Till
Click to expand...

Will do. And FWIW, you and Scott are by no means ridiculous IMO. While my collection is no where near as extensive or expensive as most I've seen here, it's all I have and I am probably close to, if not completely obsessed with keeping "just right". I have two Western Caliber III digitals that I've been affraid to calibrate with the salt test. Should I be? They are always within 1% of each other when used in the same container and very close proximity. An analog that has been tested every 90 days or so and is always spot on. And one Hygro-set round adjustable, that I consider to be the least reliable of the four.

Oh, and my wife knows about the cost of the other beads since I've purchased a Puck and two ounce Tube and told her about the cost difference when she handed me the KL, with "that look" on her face... When it comes to my wife, I've learned, somewhere over the past 32 years, that honesty is always the best policy.
:)
 
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Da Klugs said:
For the past couple of years I have been using 65% beads (Around 30 lbs) spread throughout the 2 lockers and display cab along with a Cigar Oasis II in each of the 3 units. It's about 150 CF total space. There are 42 Locker doors that open plus 2 large sliding drawers in the locker units plus large glass sliders and a couple doors in the display. Has too many places for RH to escape so passive alone does not work. It's all about the environment. In the summer ambient RH in the room is in the 50's. Let the beads get much drier and and fill the CO's maybe once a month. In the winter like now low 30's... refill the CO's at least weekly sometimes more often.

My other cab is about 27 cf. Keep 4 lbs of beads and a CO II in there as well. It has a great seal. Refill the CO maybe once a month in the winter.

Coolers are perfect for beads. Nice seal. Fill em to capacity and there is a sub CF of air to rehumidify. Unless I'm on the wrong track here.. the amount of humidification material you need is a function of your unused space more than the total space as the RH seal on a container aproaches perfection. Assuming your cigars are at your desired RH, in a cooler that is basically full you are only having to rehumidify a very small amount of cube.

The one factor you guys don't mention is the fullness or lack thereof of your cabinets. My experience has been that if you have a large airspace (like in my display cab). It's just not prcatical to operate with passive humidification alone. Too much recovery time, too much of the bead charge used.
Click to expand...

Dave, excellent point in terms of space occupied that I didn't mention. Mine is about 70-80% full I'd say. What you say goes very much in the direction of my 'relative humidity inertia' of cigars in boxes, in that you only have to rehumidify the space around the cigars once the cigars are at the desired level.

It's like a fridge that keeps stuff cooler, longer, with less energy if it is full.

Till
 
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