Wet tobacco & dry wrapper

M

maxnoodle

Young Chimp
Hi - I'm new to the website, been getting into cigars for about a year since I was in the Dominican Republic. My question is this...I bought a Frontier 100ct glass-top humidor, seasoned it. It came with an analog hygrometer which I was told is crap. So I bought a digital one which shows the temp and Rh. It reads a constant 70/70 or very close fluctuations. But my cigars seem to be have wet or good tobacco, but almost every cigar I smoke, the wrapper seems to be dry, it cracks, flakes, very brittle etc...Any advice on what the problem could be? I do know that I over humidified the humidor at one point due to mold growing in the humidifier, so I took that out for a while and the humidors cedar kept the Rh at a constant 70 alone. So its still in that state. So at this time, my reading is 71/70 with no humidifier. I'll wait until it starts to drop before I put it back in. But my concern is more with the dry wrappers on some very good cigars. Thanks for your help!
 
First thing you should do is test your hygro to make sure it accurate. Do a search for "Salt Test" to learn how to do this. I seen digitals that are off as much as +-5%.

I think you'll find after a while that you'll like a little lower RH for your cigars. I shoot for somewhere in the 63-65 range. 70, to me, seems a little to moist for almost any cigar, Cuban or Non.

Getting some beads will help a lot. Buy some 65% beads and they will suck out extra humidity when it's too high, or add it when it's too low.
 
jkorp said:
First thing you should do is test your hygro to make sure it accurate. Do a search for "Salt Test" to learn how to do this. I seen digitals that are off as much as +-5%.

I think you'll find after a while that you'll like a little lower RH for your cigars. I shoot for somewhere in the 63-65 range. 70, to me, seems a little to moist for almost any cigar, Cuban or Non.

Getting some beads will help a lot. Buy some 65% beads and they will suck out extra humidity when it's too high, or add it when it's too low.
Click to expand...


yeah - I did the salt test on both hygrometers and they both were spot on 70Rh. But that still doesnt explain why the tobacco is good but the wrappers are dry. I left my humidor cracked over night trying to reduce the humidity, (I forget to check it this morning) so I'll try dropping the Rh to 65 like you suggest and see if that helps. Thank you.
 
OK. Well another thought is the wrappers aren't dry but too wet, as in they are bursting once they get hot. They will still look flakey etc.. But when the the cigar is over humidified, you will see the cigar swell as the moister heats up and the wrapper may split.

How long are you waiting between events. If they were over humidified, it's going to take a little bit of time to dry out.

Eitherway, I would still suggest getting beads to suck out some moisture. Get the beads and put them in dry. Whats the ambient RH in the room where your humi lives?
 
maxnoodle said:
yeah - I did the salt test on both hygrometers and they both were spot on 70Rh. But that still doesnt explain why the tobacco is good but the wrappers are dry. I left my humidor cracked over night trying to reduce the humidity, (I forget to check it this morning) so I'll try dropping the Rh to 65 like you suggest and see if that helps. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Max - Did the salt test cause your hygros to read 70 RH? If so, you are under by 5%. The salt test should display a reading of 75%. Your RH is really 75% - too wet. If by your statement, you meant your hygros read 75% after the test, the mystery remains.
 
jkorp said:
OK. Well another thought is the wrappers aren't dry but too wet, as in they are bursting once they get hot. They will still look flakey etc.. But when the the cigar is over humidified, you will see the cigar swell as the moister heats up and the wrapper may split.

How long are you waiting between events. If they were over humidified, it's going to take a little bit of time to dry out.

Eitherway, I would still suggest getting beads to suck out some moisture. Get the beads and put them in dry. Whats the ambient RH in the room where your humi lives?
Click to expand...


I'll try the beads...hopefully that will work. The room fluctuates. Its my gameroom. But the temp in the humi averages 72deg. It fluctuates between 70 - 74, but most of the time at a cool 70.
 
pnoon said:
Max - Did the salt test cause your hygros to read 70 RH? If so, you are under by 5%. The salt test should display a reading of 75%. Your RH is really 75% - too wet. If by your statement, you meant your hygros read 75% after the test, the mystery remains.
Click to expand...


After the test they read 70%. When I bought the humidor, it gave instructions and that is what it said it should read. Also all the other research I did said the same. This is the first time I heard they should read 75% I'll test them again tonight to make sure. Thanks.
 
maxnoodle said:
After the test they read 70%. When I bought the humidor, it gave instructions and that is what it said it should read. Also all the other research I did said the same. This is the first time I heard they should read 75% I'll test them again tonight to make sure. Thanks.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. But I've always understood that the salt test should have hygros reading 75%.
 
pnoon said:
It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. But I've always understood that the salt test should have hygros reading 75%.
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:tpd: You are not wrong Peter. The salt test should give you a 75% reading.
This is from Cigars International: Cigars 101.
I do think that the time they have for the test is inaccurate though. I have found that it usually takes 24-36 hours to get an accurate reading.:2

Luckily, as nature would have it, when salt and water (NaCl and H2O for you studious types), are in a saturated solution at equilibrium,the resultant humidity is 75%. This gives a fantastic reference point to calibrate our hygrometer. There is an easy way to determine if your hygrometer is accurate. Here's the procedure you should use: you need a ziploc bag, a screw-on beer bottle cap (or other small container) a small amount of salt (regular 'ole table salt), and water.

Place the salt in the bottle cap (or other small container).
Dampen the salt with water. Do not put so much in that the salt gets "sloppy". You want a damp pile of salt in the bottle cap.
Place both the hygrometer and the bottle cap full of damp salt in the ziploc bag and seal it well. (It is important not to let air on or out while the test is going on.)
Keep it like this for over 8 hours.
After 8 hours in the damp salt environment, the actual humidity inside the bag will be 75%. Compare it to your hygrometer, your hygrometer should also read 75%. If not, you will then know exactly how far off your hygrometer is. If it's off, note the amount and direction that it actually reads and be sure to add or subtract that amount when reading the hygrometer. If the hygrometer has a control to adjust it (either the needle or the display), you can set the hygrometer to 75% immediately after the test.

You should salt test your hygrometer every 6 months or so to be sure of the accuracy.
 
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From the Internet Cigar Group (ICG) website FAQ:


http://www.cigargroup.com/faq/




6.1 Checking your Hygrometer Calibration


Why should I check my hygrometer's calibration?
Even if you don't want to open its case and adjust your hygrometer, you would be well advised to check its calibration. These are not the precision instruments that some people think... Analog (dial-type) hygrometers are often shipped as much as 20% out of spec. Even the often-recommended Radio shack hygrometer is shipped with a factory tolerance of plus or minus 5 points of humidity through the range 40-80%. That means your unit could read anywhere from 65 to 75% while in a 70% environment and still be considered in spec! I've personally seen up to an 8 percentage point difference between units before calibration.

For a calibration source, we're going to use salt - NaCl - plain table salt... Why salt? The following is a brief explanation of the chemistry, originally posted to asc by Peter Shenkin of Columbia University. Don't worry too much about the technical details - the point is that plain salt will, when used properly will maintain an exact 75% humidity in a sealed environment.

A saturated solution at constant temperature & pressure has a fixed composition. [[ Explanation in terms of the Gibbs Phase Rule omitted. ]] Therefore, such a solution has a fixed vapor pressure. Thus, at constant temperature, no matter how much solid NaCl and how much water are present, the concentration of the NaCl in the water is fixed, just as long as both the solution and the solid phase are present. Therefore such a solution has a fixed vapor pressure.

Now, it just happens to turn out that the vapor pressure of a saturated solution of NaCl in H20 is about 75% of the vapor pressure of pure water at any temperature close to room temperature. This means that at equilibrium, if there were nothing present except this solution and a vapor phase in contact with it (no air), the pressure above the solution would be about 15 mm_Hg, in round numbers, using 20 mm_Hg as the vapor pressure of water near room temperature, again in round numbers. As mentioned earlier, the only gas providing the pressure above the solution would be water vapor. We'll see in a few minutes that the same thing happens even when air is introduced.

OK, class dismissed - you've got it now, right? :) For more details about the science behind this calibration procedure, check out the excelent report available at: http://www.pip.dknet.dk/~pip1985/gemarkus.htm

Now to procedures. You'll need a zip-lock baggie or other see-through container, about a teaspoon of salt, and a small, shallow open container for that salt (I use the screw cap from a bottle of milk) Gee, I love this high-tech lab gear.... ;-)

Place a teaspoon or so of salt in its container and add a few drops of water to get it wet. You don't want to dissolve it, just get a good damp pile of salt in your bottle cap. This is important! Just a few drops! you want damp salt, NOT a solution. As the technical explanation above says, you want the salt present in a wet solid phase. Place it in the baggie, along with your hygrometer. CAUTION - DON'T SPILL ANY SALT ON YOUR INSTRUMENT! Be sure the Hygrometer isn't in its "min" or "max" mode, BTW.

Seal the baggie with some air trapped inside (so it's not tight against the hygrometer) and let it sit. Allow this to stabilize for at least 6 hours. (don't rush it!). After the internal "system" has stabilized, check your reading WITHOUT OPENING THE BAGGIE. It should be exactly 75%. If not, note the deviation - this is how much your hygrometer is out. Don't be surprised if your reading up to 5 points out - unfortunately, that's the factory tolerance of this instrument.

Note that several readers have had occasional problems with poorly sealing baggies. Use a small tupperware container, or double-bag your experimental setup will help avoid inaccuracies.


Poon is correct
 
Another newbie question....I have seen the charts showing the RH changing with temp. I have seen the same thing reflected in my coolador with beads. Is this calibration affected by temperature?
 
Davearob said:
Another newbie question....I have seen the charts showing the RH changing with temp. I have seen the same thing reflected in my coolador with beads. Is this calibration affected by temperature?
Click to expand...

That is a big debate and maybe some physics gurus can chime in.
According to the same FAQ that was posted above from ICG (Thanks Bob!)
this is what they say:

5.0 Humidification


Why create a humid environment with a constant relative humidity of 70%?
Cigars are naturally hygroscopic products. In common with many organic substances, they dry out in the absence of humidity in the air, or absorb moisture from the ambient air. They establish an equilibrium with the atmospheric humidity which surrounds them.

At 68% a cigar will slowly dry out and loose essential oils. At 74% and higher, organic molecules will break down out-of-order, producing unwanted tastes. More importantly, at 80% or higher, you're leaving your stogies wide open to grow mold. Neither cigars or humidors are a particularly sterile environment. Note that these are relative humidities - cigars should be stored at 70 - 73% RH regargless of temperature.

5.0a The "Variable Humidity Myth...

Many self-proclaimed "authorities" have been making a serious mistake of confusing moisture content with relative humidity lately. At least one well-known Cigar distributor has added strength to this legend by distributing a table recommendinging different relative humidities at different temperatures. Don't fall for this "urban legend"! Cigars should be kept at 70% RH REGARDLESS of temperature or you WILL ruin them...

The modern myth of varying humidity with temperature is based on an entirely false premise. Cigars don't care about absolute moisture content. They need just enough moisture to keep the tobacco pliable, but not so much to swell it. This occurs at 70-73% REGARDLESS of temperature.

Tobacco should be kept at a relative humidity which just keeps the leaves pliable without swelling them. Since that pliability is based on the interaction of the cellular membranes with the air surrounding them, *relative humidity*, not absolute moisture content is what's important. This isn't chemistry, it's mechanics - on a cellular level. Ideally, the correct point is 70-73% regardless of temperature. At 70% relative humidity (a measure which by definition is independent of temperature) cigar leaves become pliable without swelling. at 75% or higher, the cells begin to swell. at 68% or lower, they can become brittle. These points are regardless of the ambient temperature or the absolute moisture content.

Does it make any sense to a rational person to keep their cigars at close to 100% humidity at 60 degrees? Anyone living in cold climates can attest to the fact that at 60 deg, their cigars are perfect at 70%, and (as they would at any temperature) their cigars are prone to mold and swelling at humidities above 80%. Those living in the tropics will tell you the same thing - their cigars MUST be kept at 70% humidity at storage temperatures of 80 degrees. According to "the table", those cigars should be at 50% humidity? I'll tell you what... If the humidity drops below 68%, your cigars will become dry and crack - I couldn't even imagine how badly dried out they'd be at 50%!

Try it yourself. The "logic" of varying RH with temp falls apart in the real world. Moisture content is NOT why we keep cigars at 70% humidity...

Here's a more scientific explanation debunking the myth of varying humidity from David E. Patton, Ph.D. at the Department of Physiology, UCLA School of Medicine...

"There has been extensive discussion on A.S.C. concerning the effects of temperature on humidity and its application to proper cigar storage. Much of the confusion concerning these concepts comes from not understanding what is happening at the molecular level. My goal is to explain some of the relevant concepts and then to put the concepts together in such a way as to give an intuitive understanding of how they relate to cigar storage.
Cigars are made from tobacco leaves. Tobacco leaves (like most plant material) consist primarily of carbohydrates and proteins. Protein and carbohydrate molecules contain many binding sites for water molecules. A certain proportion of the water binding sites need to be occupied by water molecules in order for the tobacco leaves to be adequately pliable, to burn properly and to age properly. So when we think about humidity as it relates to cigar storage, the most relavent factor to consider is: are the correct proportion of water binding sites occupied? Water molecules bind to other molecules via hydrogen bonds. Van der Waals interactions also participate. This applies to water bound to protein and carbohydrate molecules (e.g. tobacco leaves) or to other water molecules (e.g. liquid water). For the purposes of this discussion, water bound to tobacco leaves will be treated like liquid water.

Temperature is the main factor determining whether a water molecule will be more likely to be in either the gas or liquid (or bound) phases. This is because at higher temperatures, water molecules (like any other molecule) will have more kinetic energy. The more kinetic energy a molecule has, the higher its probability of being in the gas phase. This is because it will have sufficient kinetic energy to break out of the hydrogen bonds and Van der Waals interactions that would otherwise keep it bound. At lower temperatures molecules have less kinetic energy so when they collide with a carbohydrate molecule, for example, its kinetic energy is insuficient to break away from it. The important point here is that at higher temperatures, a water molecule is more likely to be in the gas phase and less likely to be bound. At lower temperatures a water molecule is more likely to be bound and less likely to be in the gas phase.

Another point that needs to be explained here is the concept of relative humidity. Simply stated, relative humidity is the ratio of the concentration of water in the gas phase divided by the maximal concentration of water the air can hold (the saturating concentration) at a given temperature. Air holds more water at higher temperatures. Therefore, if you hold the relative humidity constant and increase the temperature, the concentration of water molecules in the gas phase will increase. If you think about this superficially you may think that because the concentration of water molecules increases in the gas phase as you increase the temperature (holding relative humidity constant)that your cigars will become over-humidified. This is WRONG. Remember, as you increase the temperature, the water molecules are less likely to be bound to the tobacco and more likely to be in the gas phase. Thus, to keep the same proportion of water binding sites in the tobacco occupied by water molecules, the concentration of water molecules in the gas phase must be increased when temperature is increased."

Again, cigars should be stored at 70 - 73% relative humidity, regardless of temperature. Period.
 
jkorp said:
First thing you should do is test your hygro to make sure it accurate. Do a search for "Salt Test" to learn how to do this. I seen digitals that are off as much as +-5%.

I think you'll find after a while that you'll like a little lower RH for your cigars. I shoot for somewhere in the 63-65 range. 70, to me, seems a little to moist for almost any cigar, Cuban or Non.

Getting some beads will help a lot. Buy some 65% beads and they will suck out extra humidity when it's too high, or add it when it's too low.
Click to expand...


Ok - so for all of you who helped me yesterday - I did the salt test again overnight on both of my hygrometers. The digital one was at 74% this am and the analog was at 72%. So I digress and agree that 75% is indeed the correct reading for the test.

I also left the humidor open all night to hopefully dry it out a little more than just being cracked.

So I put the hygrometers back into the humidor. So tell me this...what Rh % am I looking to achieve here? And tell me more about those beads? Do I put them in something? Do they come in something? Do I use them with my humidifier. I currently use a humidifier with PG and distilled water. The PG is supposed to maintain a 70% Rh. You suggested tu use 65% beads, so if I used both, wouldn't they pretty much cancel out each other?

Thanks again!
 
maxnoodle said:
So tell me this...what Rh % am I looking to achieve here? Andll teme more about those beads? Do I put them in something? Do they come in something? Do I use them with my humidifier. I currently use a humidifier with PG and distilled water. The PG is supposed to maintain a 70% Rh. You suggested tu use 65% beads, so if I used both, wouldn't they pretty much cancel out each other?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
Everything you want to know about beads. http://www.clubstogie.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9483 It's a sticky! :)

RH% is a personal choice. I prefer 60-65% where some others prefer closer to 70%. Experiment and find the right % for you. You don't use PG with beads.
 
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